For context, we are a small team of mostly non-technical designers helping small businesses with way too premium sites for way too affordable prices
lol.
Hyvor Blogs or Zenblog are good options. Or if you're into self hosting then Ghost
have you checked out this tool
https://webstudio.is/tools/headless-cms-finderThanks. Yeah, that tool is nice, whole thing is still a headache though. A common CMS use case we run into is making sales pages with multiple images and text blocks. We would really like a table view to bulk edit things like h1s, with rows expanding into pages to edit things like rich text, which Notion and Coda offer.
But the main challenge is being able to manage hundreds of client CMS pages from one account, and give them edit access to their files. Coda would be amazing for that if it worked. Are there any other options?
Hyvor and Zenblog seem very blog focused and we need the kind of flexibility we have in Webflow.
Is there a chance that CMS functionality will be part of the Webstudio framework without using a headless CMS? There are lots of tools available but each come with their own limitations or are on the contrary too bulky for some clients to work with which also come with the risk of them breaking stuff.
There are lots of tools available but each come with their own limitations
Exactly and if we add one, it willbe 101 cms with it's own limitations
Do you imagine we can build a CMS into webstudio that will have no limitations?
limitations come from use cases for which the CMS was built
this is why fundamentally there are many different CMSs
we are considering adding something that will allow doing certain things and avoid the need to use external CMS for simple use cases, but the work on it is not started and the ideas are just floating around for now
Ah yeah in that case I like Baserow. Baserow is really good when it comes to offering filters for the users too.
I'm not 100% sure on user mgmt but I think you can create different tables and assign users to them. Easy to find out though
I 100% echo what Oleg said. The reason there are dozens (100s?) of tools in the marketplace is because they solve different use cases with different approaches. There is no "best". Eg in this use case they want tabular data. That would eliminate Webflow's cms unless you pay for a third party tool like whalesync to sync airtable to webflow
NocoDB has a nice UI but if you want to provide filters to users (e.g., search, checkboxes, radio, etc.) then the API if very difficult if not impossible to work with
I also heard good things about
https://tapeapp.com/ but I don't have any experience using it, can connect you with an expert though
strapi is very powerful too
Coming from mostly WordPress sites, I agree with @Suzanne that an included CMS even if it was basic would be a nice to have. I really like the option to hook into almost anything, but having a built in option would be convenient for more basic projects.
From a big picture perspective, Webflow was the best tool for designers to build custom websites. Is Webstudio meant to be a tool for developers to develop websites, or an actual competitor to Webflow? Currently I think most designers will give up at Webstudio's complexity. I've seen the reasoning throughout Discord, and agree it doesn't make sense for you to develop a CMS. But I think you are missing the opportunity of selling to average non-technical designers. You could easily win over people stuck in Webflow, and even people building in simpler platforms like Squarespace and Wix.
We started there and moved to Webflow so we could create more custom websites for clients. Webflow has problems and you fix those problems. If your tool was simpler and easier, people like us could just skip the Webflow stage altogether.
Sorry for the monologue--I think Webstudio could easily be the best website builder on the planet, not just "better than Webflow". For now, it's just too complicated for most people.
I'm only here because I'm relentless at providing the best for my clients and can handle some headaches.
average non-technical designers.
I don't think that average non-technical designers are a typical webflow users either.
even people building in simpler platforms like Squarespace and Wix
This is a very different category of people than a webflow user.
We started there and moved to Webflow so we could create more custom websites for clients.
Did you have html/css skills when you moved?
it's just too complicated for most people.
Are you talking specifically about connecting a CMS? Is there a specific part of that process you can name that makes it too hard?
Only because we needed to know it to do custom things in Squarespace and Shopify.
Ok so you learned webflow when you already new basics of html/css. You are not an average squarespace user I would say.
I'm talking about the whole experience, with CMS as an example. I'm just stuck on figuring out which CMS is best for my clients.
But my main question is, what do you want to do with this tool? Because like I said, I think it could easily be the best website builder in general if the experience was simpler.
It's not that people can't figure it out, it's that they don't want to. I don't know what you can actually develop. But the people want one-click solutions, or at least to not have to look at anything resembling code 😂
I think you have a specific few of what people want, most likely your view is that of building simple sites, where finding external CMS is not justified.
Sure, ]\what is your view? Who is Webstudio for?
Technical Designers and developers.
People who either already learned basics of html/css or are willing to learn.
This is no different to webflow
Whats different to webflow is using APIs to connect external data
Why not become the ultimate website builder for everyone?
I don't feel like this discussion in this thread is the right place, but in short - you can't allow building complex sites and not having a complex interface. Complex interface is not for everyone.
With AI it will be possible to generate sites, so we will potentially have a "simple mode", but we are not going to throw away the entire philosophy of providing visual access to html/css and making building visually nearly anything possible.
Got it. Sorry, not sure where the discussion should be. Just want to get the big picture idea as we commit to Webstudio for years of future and existing clients
Webstudio is a tool for professionals and those who want ot become one.
frankly this doesn't exist. Its either dumb and limited or its complex and powerful.
AI has a potential to provide something that you can use without skills to build "something". It won't be perfect and it won't be exactly what you need, its called "vibe coding".
Yeah, I'm not suggesting to remove advanced functionality. But I do think there is a common sentiment among new users that it could be easier to use, from small interface confusions to learning how to add CMS.
Small confusions obviously need to be fixed.
Learning how to add a CMS can be improved in several ways:
- recommending a few specific CMSs for different use cases. Top pics basically, for the people who don't know how to choose even after seeing https://webstudio.is/tools/headless-cms-finder
- Improving API connection interface (lots of ideas there)
- Eventually providing some sort of basic CMS for simple content
We are super keen to learn about those small confusions to understand how these can be fixed.
These usually take high priority.
Sounds great. Thanks for hearing me out. Hope you have a great day Oleg!
Thank you for all the feedback!
@John Siciliano what do you think of making an article with our top pics, for a 2-3 specific use cases. This article would reason about why these are top pics and also linnk to the cms finder.
We could use that article as a help for anyone new to webstudio asking which cms to use instead of sending them directly to the cms finder which is likely overwhelming to many.
That article could be also a starting point with all the links one need to know about when connecting a CMS an kinda either give them all the info or send them to a more complete tutorial for the specific CMS.
@Seth would the above recommendation be useful for you?
And fwiw, Global Variables were just launched and all the Marketplace templates were updated. This one change has definitely simplified working with CMS, though there are other areas we have ideas for
Yeah I think so. A solution for my specific use case might not exist yet. As a user I want to know what y'all recommend, to reduce decision fatigue
In my case, I use Tape App as my CMS. I created a template for Webstudio to get you started:
https://p-69856b60-05c8-4be6-ba9b-d4a117ae366e.apps.webstudio.is/?authToken=77ad7517-6b62-41cb-8745-eab9e9a33de5&mode=previewOne aspect of this CMS integration is that you must build everything according to your specific needs and then connect it to Webstudio via the Tape API. It is a very advanced integration made for professional developers. Still, with the combination of Tape/Webstudio, you can create nearly anything to fit your business's and your clients' needs.
A common CMS use case we run into is making sales pages with multiple images and text blocks. We would really like a table view to bulk edit things like h1s, with rows expanding into pages to edit things like rich text, which Notion and Coda offer.
I was wondering about what you mentioned here. In Webstudio, you can send your clients the site in "Content Mode" (tutorial here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzRy45vIViY). Would that work in your case instead of a CMS?
Thanks @Luis , I'll check it out.
The 3 ways for improvement you listed above sound great. An advantage of creating a basic CMS within Webstudio, imo, would be that you can make it to be what you want it to be, based on user & client feedback. I agree that every tool will have limitations but with a self built tool you're the one who decides what the limitations will be, at least to some degree.
I see a problem: the client has to use an external tool—or even two—to manage their site. Personally, it’s not an issue for me, but Webflow won clients over because they could fully manage content visually, including CMS entries. It was simple: one account, one system.
With an external CMS, the client either loses access to Webstudio editing or has to learn two systems, with two logins... I’m still looking for a CMS that will convince my client because they’re completely non-technical, and managing a simple blog with two accounts stresses them out. 😉
If you are using a CMS, most editing by the client would be there, in that CMS, no?
Yes, and in a way, it’s even better—since the client can’t mess things up too much. 😉 That was always an issue with Webflow. But for some reason, visual editing feels more appealing. A CMS is an abstraction for clients, while visual editing gives them a sense of control.
As I mentioned, I think Webstudio’s concept is brilliant. Right now, I’m working on a small project that elegantly presents data from a simple Google Sheet. It’s incredibly easy and a great use case. But I do understand the other perspective.
For me, the real problem is the overwhelming number of external CMS options. I don’t have time to learn 100 different systems, but I also can’t settle on just one. 😅
@Oleg Isonen re: "Improving API connection interface (lots of ideas there)" Sounds exciting, are you planning to share your ideas with the community?
its not a secret, just spread across a number of issues and hasn't been put into something that's easy to share
another one is adding graphiql playground for graphql apis, so you don't have to find graphiql on the other platform and can do it directly from webstudio
lots of other ideas have been in discussion internally but haven't been put into writing, because needs deeper investigation
I've wished for this so many times while building, would be so 🔥
I think this is a great discussion. @szymonszczechowicz I hear you about clients needing to learn a new tool or two. My ideal clients don't want to touch their websites and just have me do it. I have only setup one WS site with a CMS so far. It was more or less a blog, and I used Ghost. The hosted version of Ghost is strangely expensive in my opinion. So I spun one up with Pikapods and it costs less than $2 per month. The cliet only ever logs into Ghost and it is very easy to use.
That said, I am looking forward to any and all changes the WS team can make to make it easier to integrate CMS. I am not an advanced dev. I can usually figure things out, but it's a matter of time. And I don't want to bug the team for support.
Yeah Ghost needs a different pricing model for headless because we arent using emails, payments, etc.
I've had clients that worked in Airtable and they loved it. Its just very intuitive for them and they dont need to touch the site. They were the least techy people ever
Another thing to simplify CMS is creating a UI for binding response data instead of drilling down into objects like data.data.posts etc. Something like n8n or automation tools I suppose
I have a project right now with a relatively complex database that I need to migrate from MySQL to something else. My main anxiety is the technical side of is getting it integrated into WS, especially when I know I could do it very quickly in Webflow. I just don't want to have anything to do with Webflow any more lol.
Technically you can use Webflow CMS as a headless CMS for webstudio. lol
Complex database sounds fun 🙂 I had some stuff in Webflow and was hitting technical limits of their CMS. I moved it to Sanity and its allowed me to do soooo much more complex stuff its awesome
Oh god, using Webflow for a headless CMS would be like using Wordpress for the block builder! 😆
I think you have 2 complex parts:
- database itself
- api for getting the data out of whatever you choose
I am curious why you feel like you would easily do this in webflow, is it because you already used something like whalesync to put the data from mysql into webflow? or where is the confidence coming from
@John Siciliano I will review Sanity again. Strapi also looks pretty good.
@Oleg Isonen I should be more clear -- Yes there are two parts. The database operations to migrate from SQL to something else are complex. I spent my day yesterday figuring out some options. The main challenge is that with almost any option I can find, you lose relational elements, and have to re-create them. Also not sure how to keep images associated with their records, etc. It's above my paygrade but I am making progress.
The next part is the API stuff in Webstudio. I think it is very simple for people who understand it. It's not that complext really. But until you gain experience with it, it just feels difficult. So the confidence with Webflow is that I don't have to know this second part -- building the connects to a headless CMS. Like I said, I am sure that seems so simple to many people.
Everything should remain in tact. Let me know the specific system you are trying to migrate to and I'll see if I can provide any value. I have experience migrating CMS data. Assets are always a pain but possible
Actually, a platform for everyone does exist—WordPress. And because of its lack of focus on a specific group of users, it has all the problems it does, which is why many of us have started seeing Webstudio as an escape from the mess that WordPress has become lately.
The thing is its not a showcase, its a template that allows you to insert it into your project and get the functionality. If we bloat it with styling you will get the styling you don't want and will have to cleanup. That's why its minimalistic
Maybe there could be a separate page aka demo
I republished and its working now. Maybe I hit publish too soon last time when I was switching to globals
For clarity: in Webstudio, does each website require its own account for each CMS use case needed? So each client has to login to Webstudio to edit site content, a blogging platform like Zenblog for blog posts, a database like Baserow for a directory, a platform like Shopify for ecommerce, etc...? Seems like a lot to manage for everyone, even if you only use 1 cms. Also a lot of subscription services to pay for
Haven't migrated all our sites yet while I'm researching all the CMS stuff, and I don't know how it all works. But would it be possible to "write" data back to the CMS from Webstudio, so you could use something like Baserow for everything except ecom, essentially using the Webstudio Builder as a WYSIWYG editor? Might not feel as nice as Ghost to write in, but knowing exactly what your blog post looks like on your site is nice. The purpose being to give clients a single place to edit everything.
Yes, if its a lot to manage then you pick one generic cms that solves all use cases. If its a project that doesn't justify using a specialized tool - then don't.
But would it be possible to "write" data back to the CMS from Webstudio
Not at the moment. Potentially in some distant future - yes.
knowing exactly what your blog post looks like on your site is nice
This could be solved with staging url where draft articles can be previewed right away before you publish them as non-draft
The staging url sounds amazing! Do you have any tutorials on how to do something like that? I’m imagining using Baserow with a column containing preview links, and a column containing a status toggle
In your Resource in Webstudio you can create a conditional filter based on system.origin.
system.origin === "<staging domain>" ? <filter for any content> : <filter only published content>
At least that's one solution.
Then in baserow you can have a formula that combines your staging url + path with slug so your editors can open the current record on the staging site
Thanks. Potential new users coming from Webflow may be reassured if they could visualize something like that
