Happy to provide all the answers, but first, what's your goal, why are you asking?
We are discussing to create a page that explains the benefits per persona etc.
I come from a Webflow & Wordpress background, but am concerned about the lock-in and cost of Webflow and am concerned also about how future-proof Wordpress page builders and themes are.
Web studio seems promising to solve those issues, but it seems much more developer oriented.
Im wondering if that’s true and if so, is it considered to be faster than living in VS code? if I’m a developer who could live in a code editor, why would I choose a visual builder like web studio instead?
Not trying to challenge anything at all - just wondering if it’s the right fit for me and the direction I’m headed.
So you are a developer, who used webflow and wordpress?
I really learned html and css through webflow. I am not saying that I could live in a code editor today, but I’d like to get there. Wondering if adding web studio to my stack would be a good next step or if I should just start learning Astro or laravel or something.
Webstudio lowers the barrier of entry into building things. It triees to get you as close as possible to coding, but lets you build most of the things visually. This aspect is no different than webflow.
I am wondering if there is anything on the home page that you thing we need to add if that was not clear.
The homepage to me communicates:
“We give you more freedom than Webflow does”
It does not communicate to me
“Web Studio is the best tool to build [insert category] websites because…”
Or “Web studio is the preferred tool of [insert persona] because…”
In other words, the value proposition seems to be very tied to Webflow.
If I’m a designer that needs an easy way to build a website, I’m not sure that I’m sold.
If I’m a marketer that needs an easy way to edit content, I’m not sure that I’m sold.
If I’m a developer who builds sites for clients, sees the value in fetching data from any api, understands concepts like dynamic server side rendering, data bindings, and may even want to contribute code… why do I want to use a visual builder?
Maybe those aren’t problems you want to solve.. but that’s why I’m asking!
Thanks for the info!
“We give you more freedom than Webflow does”
We temporarily changed our title on the homepage to mention Webflow, which to your point does frame all things to follow as being tied to Webflow. Before it was, "The web builder for advanced sites". (we will continue trying variations). If you used the product, how would you frame it?
“Web Studio is the best tool to build [insert category] websites because…”
The attached was meant to address this. How can we change it so that the use cases are better understood?
If I’m a designer that needs an easy way to build a website, I’m not sure that I’m sold.
I wouldn't classify Webstudio as easy, more so flexible and maintainable especially at scale.... so designers can build consistent websites that have many pages.
If I’m a developer who builds sites for clients, sees the value in fetching data from any api, understands concepts like dynamic server side rendering, data bindings, and may even want to contribute code… why do I want to use a visual builder?
Custom coding takes way too long. We say "Iterate quickly, without writing code." but maybe need to make it more prominent? Typically devs have to choose between flexibility and long iterations (custom code) and rapid iterations but constraints (no code builders)... Webstudio is best of both worlds/happy medium: you still get a high level of control and developer-familiar concepts yet you have a UI which makes things so much faster
Thoughts?
To be clear, I don't think any of those examples I mentioned need to be addressed. I was just using those to showcase what questions I don't think are being answered and why I'm asking who it's for and what problem it solves.
I think its totally okay if the target audience is people who know they need a visual builder like Webflow but want more freedom. I just wanted to know if that was truly the case. I'm personally unsure if I want to continue using visual builders, so I don't feel that any of the messaging addresses my unique situation, but that's okay!
I'm working on a page that would compare Webstudio to alts by persona, e.g.., developer and comparing Webstudio, Custom Code, Webflow, and WordPress.
Why do you feel this way about being unsure if you want to use visual builders anymore? I would agree with you until I met Webstudio 🙂 so what exactly are your pain points with the visual builders so I can see if Webstudio addresses them and if so I can speak to them better
Can you answer the question about why you may not want to use visual builders anymore?
I suppose that for me, there seems to always be some level of opinion they force on you. Though I'm sure that's just the reality of creating a controlled, stable ui.
A big one for me is the fact that classes / tokens get renamed. What I name my token in the builder is not what shows up in the front-end inspector. That seems like it could get frustrating.
I mentioned to Oleg before that I'd personally love to see the "advanced" panel as a simple a code box that I could write my CSS in. From what I can tell, there isn't a super intuitive way to use psuedo classes like :before, :after, :first-child, :nth-child, etc.
Other general UI stuff like adjusting panel widths. Webstudio seems to be very unopinionated in what you can code, but it still seems to be fairly opinionated in your workflow.
Again, that's okay. I'm sure that's just the reality. Hence, maybe why I personally need to move on. I know you guys have solved a lot of problems and I applaud everyone on all that has been done so far!
All that said, I am going to try to build a full website instead of just tinkering around. I’ll let you know how it goes.
When people want to use classes and such, I am asking myself: How much do you know about CSS. Are you aware of specificity algorithms, source order specificity, selector specificity, etc. How much do you know about class naming methodologies and building a large site with that CSS.
When people say they want to write custom code, I am asking myself: How much do you know about git, dependencies management, Node, deployments, bundling etc?
How much do you know about performance optimizations for rendering, delivering from CDN, caching etc?
Webstudio lets you build without caring about any of this ... if this value is in question, you indeed need to go suffer until you can come back from a different angle.
new title
if this value is in question, you indeed need to go suffer until you can come back from a different angle.
well said 🤣
A big one for me is the fact that classes / tokens get renamed. What I name my token in the builder is not what shows up in the front-end inspector. That seems like it could get frustrating.
what's your use case for this btw?
Just generally if I’m getting unexpected styles and want to see where styles are coming from. Also I’m curious to test how adding JS would work if I were want to reference a class - would it be the name of the token I use or would I have to dig through the inspector to see how that token has been renamed?
you would add your class to be used for js, its in settings panel, tokens is a class automation that you don't need to touch or care about
with code, its btw a good practice to not touch classes used for styling, from js, for js we usually try to add a different class starting with js-
this was to ensure that changing classes for styling doesn't break js and so its clear thre is a js selector on that element
Here you don't have that problem, because you don't manage classes for styling, its automated via tokens.
Same like you wouldn't use a tailwind class in a js selector.
I briefly touched on the classes vs tokens in a video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1QSWHOtk08Btw you can disable atomic styles so it outputs human readable names, but this would be only useful for exporting your site and making changes outside of webstudio
https://docs.webstudio.is/university/foundations/project-settings#atomic-cssI'm really interested in your use case/perception, because personally, I want to gear our messaging more to people with your skillsets... webstudio has minimal abstractions and minimal opinions. Somebody with some dev background will typically appreciate all css, fetching apis, and using the expression editor for example
of course there are features missing so if you say i need custom components for example, well it'll happen but we don't have them yet. But if it's a matter of perception, that can be fixed with words 🙂
So what I'm gathering is that Webstudio is for people who are frustrated with webflow, understand GraphQL and JSON but don't understand
specificity algorithms, source order specificity, selector specificity, etc. How much do you know about class naming methodologies and building a large site with that CSS.
Also @Oleg Isonen from what I can tell in this channel, people who are confused or have different ideas are often met with defensiveness and belittling. I hope for the sake of your product and the people you intend for it to serve that you can spend more time understanding.
Webstudio is for designers, developers, and startup founders.
It can be used to create marketing sites, structured content like directories and blogs, and more.
It's different because it's advanced and aligns with development concepts offering minimal abstractions and opinions.
Where other builders try to abstract things or water things down, Webstudio is building a visual interface that aligns with code... which is appealing to those that know code and those who don't.
We are also solely focused on the visual builder... we aren't spreading our efforts thin by creating CMS, ecomemrce, membership etc, rather the primitives are provided (or will be provided) to accomplish these things. So you can choose the best tools the internet has to offer/the best for the job.
We have a healthy mixture of people coming from Webflow, WordPress and Custom Code (react, etc.). Some have never heard of graphql and never written a line of JS while others have
is there anything specifically that clicked with you? I'm just curious if Webstudio interests you aftering hearing a certain thing that maybe we need to double down on somehwere?
I mean I don’t think that majorly changed anything for me, but I think describing it as a unique tool solving specific problems is helpful rather than relying on what people know about / are frustrated by other tools. It just sounds like a good direction.
Curious how things go as you build and if things change. The tool is not here to solve a specific use case... I actually have a YouTube video coming out soon that compares Webstudio to a knife and other website builders to an onion cutter... the idea is webstudio way more versatile because its not opinionated... so what's the specific use case for a knife? 🙂
"Visually build websites without opinions and unecessary abstractions"
